Editor’s note: The below interview contains major spoilers for Better Call Saul Season 6 Episode 5, “Black and Blue.“The long-running AMC seriesBetter Call Saulmight technically serve as a prequel toBreaking Bad, but has carved out a storytelling niche all its own in the realm of drama television thanks to unexpected twists and phenomenal performances. The show chronicles the journey of Jimmy McGill (Bob Odenkirk), a former conman who aspires to become a decent lawyer, through his seemingly-inevitable descent into the role of crooked criminal defense attorney Saul Goodman. Throughout the prior five seasons, Jimmy’s backstory has played almost in tandem with flash-forward scenes from his post-Breaking Badlife, as we learn more about the people who played such a formative role in shaping his burgeoning professional career in law (like his now-wife Kim Wexler, played byRhea Seehorn, or his now-late older brother Charles McGill, played byMichael McKean). We also learn how Jimmy’s path first crossed with that of former police officer and security expert Mike Ehrmentraut (Jonathan Banks), and how he ultimately became a “friend of the cartel” rather unwittingly, thanks to tangling with members of the deadly Salamanca crime family, spearheaded by the unpredictable Lalo (Tony Dalton), who frequently clashes with rival drug lord Gus Fring (Giancarlo Esposito).
Ahead of the premiere ofBetter Call SaulSeason 6’s fifth episode, Collider had the opportunity to speak withPatrick Fabian, who plays Howard Hamlin, about his character’s most pivotal moments from “Black and Blue.” Over the course of the interview, which you can read below, Fabian discusses how he never expected to be playing this character through all ofBetter Call Saul’s six seasons and why he wasn’t surprised that Howard pieced together Kim and Jimmy’s plan to discredit him. He also discusses what it was like to choreograph and film the boxing scene with Odenkirk, why that fight doesn’t mean the end of Jimmy and Howard’s feud, which fellow cast member helped him train before filming, how he feels about where Howard ends up inSaul’s final season, and more.
Collider: You play a character who has been with the show since the beginning, and we’re now in the final season. When you first joined on, was there ever any sense in your mind that Howard would be a role that you would get to play through every single season ofBetter Call Saul?
PATRICK FABIAN: Absolutely not. I was surprised every season when they said, “Yeah, we’re going to have Howard come back for some things,” because there’s a lot of stories going on. There’s a lot of real estate that needs to be covered in these stories that’s going on. Especially after Chuck, after the mighty Michael McKean and his demise happened, we had spent a lot of time at HHM. We had spent a lot of time with the lawyers, and so on a practical level, I thought, “Oh, it’s been a good run, but now that Michael’s gone I don’t know what the character of Howard serves, what purpose it serves.” It’s good that I’m not a writer because I would’ve written myself out, and instead, Vince [Gilligan] and Peter [Gould] and the whole writing staff realized that Howard absolutely serves a purpose and still does, very much so, and particularly in this season.
Jimmy and Howard have always had a complicated relationship, but last season, it really felt like Howard was moving toward a place of trying to bury the hatchet. In your mind, did that stem from the situation with Chuck and how that all ultimately played out?
FABIAN: Oh yeah, I think Howard from the very beginning has wanted to be a father figure or a mentor towards Jimmy. The things that he did to Jimmy because of Chuck, for lack of a better reason, I think he absolutely regrets. But along the way, he did give Jimmy a job at Davis and Main, and he’s literally offered him a job at HHM, and he’s offered to say, “Hey, you should get therapy. It really helps.” So he has extended his hand again and again and again, and his reward has been bowling balls on his car and hookers at his lunch. I mean, that’s if you look at the fact.
At the end of [Season] 5, when [Jimmy] explodes, I give him one more chance, and he explodes on me in that great scene that Melissa Bernstein directed where I’m exiting the courthouse, and he’s just going nuts behind me, that beautiful speech, Howard is done at that point. It doesn’t mean he’s anything other than officially done. It’s like when you’re in a bad relationship. At some point you go, “I can’t answer the phone anymore.” But then [Howard] goes to Kim to say, “You shouldn’t answer the phone either.” Of course Kim’s like, “I’m sorry. That’s my bestie.” Then, at that point, Howard also has washed his hands, so that chapter is done. He’s done helping, and he’s done trying, but he’s done his part and I think he has a clean conscience about it, which is why the stuff that happens this season so far really rankles him, which leads into this sort of extraordinary trap to bring [Jimmy] into the boxing ring.
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Were you surprised by how quickly Howard was able to piece together what was really going on as of this week?
FABIAN: Oh, Howard’s smart. He’s not dumb. Vapid, vainglorious, might be narcissistic, but he’s not stupid, and he sees what’s going on. He knows what’s happening, and putting the pieces together makes sense because the things that are happening to him do not make sense. They do not make sense in any stretch of the imagination of his world, how it’s constructed, and who he knows, except — and there’s the big asterisk — except if it involves Jimmy. How would Howard know that? By his experience with him for the past five years. How would [Howard] know that? Because of who he is, because of what Chuck has told [him], because of [his] own eyes. So I don’t think it’s a large leap to have Howard all of a sudden figure it out. When Cliff is telling him all this stuff, from the cocaine to the hooker and stuff like that, this is just the absurd icing on top of a ridiculous cake, right? Who bakes a cake like that? There’s nobody who bakes a cake like that except Jimmy McGill. Howard doesn’t have to know all of the details. He just has to know, you know what I mean? We all have feelings, and he’s got a good feeling on all of this.
There’s a part of me that feels like the show could easily set Howard up to be a deserving target, but the moments that we get with him, like the moment he’s at therapy, and he’s opening up to his therapist about problems at home. The show makes him a more complex character that you almost start to feel bad for. What problems is he even causing at this point to merit any of this treatment?
FABIAN: And I think probably that might be a question for everybody, all the fans who are watching, as they watch Kim sort of take the lead on this thing. I mean, Jimmy was sort of reluctant in the first place, but now he’s clearly all on board wearing the suit and all that. He’s back in complete Saul Goodman mode with that. But that therapy scene — directed by Rhea Seehorn, I’ll point out — and written by Ann Cherkis, which is great. Ann gave me the gift of those lines, which is the first time that we do get to see Howard’s mask slide and all those sort of things happen, and that’s really amazing.
I think you’re right. It does show that Howard is more complicated and maybe this is this one-sided notion. But again, we’re watching a show calledBetter Call Saul. We’re looking at the show through the eyes and the lens of Saul Goodman and also his wife, Kim Wexler, and so I occupy a space that is in the way of what they profess they want to get, so in that fact, I am a villain. Do I deserve what he’s doing? No. But do bad things happen to good people sometimes? Yeah, and Jimmy’s done some bad things to me. So guess what? Howard’s arming up with some boxing gloves and some private investigators, and maybe he’s going to do some damage himself. You never know.
I do want to talk about the boxing scene with you and Bob. What was that like to shoot in terms of figuring out the choreography, or any kind of prep that you guys did?
FABIAN: Well, all fights are choreographed very much, to an inch of their lives. They have to be. In this, Melissa Bernstein, who directed it, she also knew visually what she wanted frame by frame basically. Between her and the fight choreographer, they figured out what was good. Luis Moncada, [who plays] one of the Salamanca brothers, was my trainer. So he trained me, and when I say train, we worked at boxing for a little bit, and then we worked on what it was like to pretend box, how to box for the camera, which is a different animal. Bob, of course, was off of doingNobody, the action film, so he had plenty of experience, but of course, I had to keep reminding him, “Hey, Bob, you don’t win this one.” I know it rankled him just a little bit. But he made that great choice for Jimmy because Jimmy’s not taking this serious. Jimmy’s also not in shape about this. If you’ve ever boxed before, if you’ve gone for like a minute in the ring, you get gassed. You’re exhausted, so it really plots out well that by the end Jimmy cheats, steps on my foot to pound on me, which ultimately leads to his demise because he opens himself up to a big, fat shot.
It was an all-day affair. It was exhausting and exciting, and it’s also, it’s choreographed, and we were professionals and all that stuff, but when they say action, if you put boxing gloves on two actors and put them in a ring and put a camera on them and then say action, you sort of just, “Ahh!” So we had to watch ourselves sometimes, but it was really, really fun and one of those extraordinary things I never thought in Season 1 ofBetter Call SaulI would find myself in that situation.
I’m glad you talked about the ending of the fight because Howard definitely wins in a technical knockout, but it does feel like there is that feeling of business left unresolved, something left unfinished. Do you think Jimmy is preparing to ramp up his plan, or do you think Howard’s kind of taken the wind out of his sails a little after that, and he needs to go lick his wounds a bit?
FABIAN: Well, it’s funny. I think the fact that Howard already has the PI outside after that lets me know that he doesn’t think that this boxing thing is really going to end it, and he says as much. “I would like to think this ends it. Don’t mistake my kindness for weakness.” But the reality is that even though I say, “Don’t you want this, Jimmy? Isn’t this what you want?” Jimmy might not be wrong when he says, “This is whatyouwant.” Maybe both of us want to swing at each other a little bit. Even though Howard couches it in, “I’m giving you the opportunity for you to get this off your chest,” the opposite could absolutely be true, but the fact that he has the PI outside shows us that Howard already recognizes beforehand that this most likely isn’t going to end at all. For Howard, it’s such a base solution. He recognizes that this complicated relationship we have won’t be resolved by something so animalistic.
Speaking of resolution, I know you probably can’t say much, but how do you feel about where Howard ends up in this final season?
FABIAN: You know what? The writers have taken care of Howard so well by giving him, to your point, six seasons, where I didn’t even think I was going to be around for two. Every season there’s another facet, there’s another window, there’s another portal into Howard’s psyche and his character. They really give Howard a 360-degree turn for this season. You get to see a whole bunch of Howard, which is really great. So I think they resolve Howard in this season the way it ought to be.
Season 6 ofBetter Call Saulairs Monday nights at 9 PM ET/PT on AMC.
